What Makes a Real Man? 50 Men Debate | Middle Ground – YouTube Dictation Transcript & Vocabulary

1.i've literally heard women say "I hate men." Of course absolutely and to the patriarchy a lot of these ideas of what you think misandry is are just your misogynistic instincts and assumptions being exposed yeah so now you're you're you're assuming that I'm misogynistic yeah you are i'm not assume that was not an assumption i gave you a very I gave you a very clear demonstrating it right now really really i hate it because that's literally the definition misogynistic yeah probably i think we all are a little bit some more than others wow yeah all right it's 2025 trump is president and we're back with another middle ground XL behind me I have 25 traditional men and 25 progressive men we're going to ask them some questions and we're going to see if they can find a middle ground our first question is should it be socially acceptable for men to wear skirts come forward and find your speaker for this issue all right all right me personally I like fashion i tried to dress nice today you did dress nice today thank you thank you i'm wearing a woman's sweater right now this is from Brandy Melville um but background um in my culture like I'm Native Hawaiian men have traditionally worn skirts we go back to other cultures Japan long gowns traditionally men have been seen in history to be wearing the same clothes that women do now and America is a much younger society than any of these cultures that have dated back thousands and thousands of years okay so first I'd like everyone to take a second and take a look at the fellas and what they're wearing over there let's be so real right now how are they going to argue about what fashion yeah about what fashion is supposed to mean in a manly sense or traditional sense and in India they wear doies they're not wearing skirts because they think they're a woman here in America that's the reason that they're wearing skirts is because they are trying to project that they are a female or the opposite sex or or gender fluidity or any of that and it's just nonsense again it depends it depends on your intention it depends on your culture if your intention is to be feminine right obviously it's not right tell us bro right i thought we were all about like the government not interrupting when it comes to just masculinity in general like I'm in the camp of you provide for your wife you protect her you should be a pillar any sign of like wearing a skirt or something like that like obviously bro like that's that's up it's not the move this is kind of representative of a general idea of what a man is supposed to be in terms of how we dress how we conduct ourselves in public i think most men look at what a man is supposed to dress like and and look at that and see well now I have to justify the difference between that and me clothing is not gendered we make it gendered anything that we're wearing could be a woman's whatever so we just put we put titles on things and I have I got a feeling nobody over there is going to have any argument against any one of us the progressive men are going to say it doesn't matter what you wear you can wear any dress you can wear a skirt you can wear this in the same vein they would say it doesn't matter what language you speak it doesn't matter what religion you speak and as traditional men we disagree with that we want to have a cohesive society that we speak similar things we believe similar things we have a sense of community in all of the in the things that we wear what they're saying is actually the antisocial stance where everybody does what they want and nobody has a sense of community so we need to we need to hit on that whoever speaks not just about the skirt cuz the skirt is it's the detail and that's unimportant we are rooted in some kind of greater faith that defines masculinity the man has a role he is under God he is serving his family and he is the creator of his society and the perpetuator of said values yo it's simple bros um skirts are for women we should also talk about what does it look like if it's not socially acceptable what does that mean point out how in practice if it's not socially acceptable that means we're shaming people we're bullying people we're excluding people and I don't think anyone agrees that's a good thing who wants to speak okay then we I think I feel comfortable we have to make it a vote we want we want to know who wants okay all in favor everyone for Riley who votes for Riley one two three four five six seven eight nine i think that's already majority one guys one and done it is Riley all right both sides have chosen their speakers so let's bring forward Duma and Riley [Applause] should it be socially acceptable for men to wear skirts got 8 minutes to find a middle ground between the two of you go for it well I believe that men can wear whatever they want and pertaining to skirts particularly i am a Native Hawaiian person um traditionally in the culture culture that goes further back than America itself men wear skirts um Japan men wear long gowns you know skirt though specifically something else again it's just different cultural norms i wear a th sometimes yes but it's norms i've like I've roommed with guys in the military and they said like I had to shoot the dude in the dress so it's like n like do I take it personal no that's just according to that group of people that's what they call it right like I wouldn't call a hilt a skirt okay no that's a cultural symbol what a skirt means in today's society is different but go ahead i'm sorry for cutting you off i mean yeah like I was saying traditionally cultures that go further back where clo clothing only has the meaning that we set to it so you know if I some someday decide that your skinnier pants are feminine because I you know I got baggier pants right then I can do Do I get to ridicule you for that do I get to outcast you for that that's just my question again going back why is it not why is it not socially acceptable what it represents is that's femininity yo like like there's there's no question about it like if you're a dude walking around in a black leather skirt like you're you're saying a lot like Jaden Smith is one of them cats that was on Vogue like nah like we've seen what a skirt represents as a man in at least in North American culture and even some Asian cultures like I've been to South Korea there are a lot of hyper feminine men out there the only thing that I didn't see in South Korea was cats putting on makeup in the mirror but for some reason whenever I go outside I see hella cats wearing makeups foundation eyeliner all that stuff so femininity is negative and for for men to express me yeah yeah but is it is it okay to express feminine things what do you think about my nail polish what do you think about my skinny personally me personally bro I would I ain't rocking like that okay that's cool that's great but I am so is there anything wrong with that that that's a feminine trait that maybe you want to exude about yourself now like if we walk down the street like I may interact with you a little bit differently just because like I see the fact that you're wearing nail polish what does that mean like generally bro like whenever cats are like wearing their polish they're a little bit more hyper feminine they they may try to hit on you or just other stuff in general okay so it's like So so you're so you're afraid i mean I No no no i'm not afraid even outward expression of femininity does not define sexuality i mean like there's a lot of straight guys out there a lot of you know people who are in like you know emo punk scene wearing black nail polish for fun uh you know people who wear lots of rings completely straight and it doesn't matter representation though of what that means what's the What does that mean though so like a guy wearing like he's obviously counterculture right like if he's like the emo punk kind of guy also like borderline like devil worship at times devil worship yeah like nah that can be clearly associated with it with a pentagram a skirt isn't indicative of what a masculine man should represent in today's society we got a lot of over feminization of a lot of guys like being a solid man that your wife can look to or whoever that you're taking care of can look to and be like "Yo that's my pillar." Like if something going wrong in my life they got me and if you're walking around wearing a skirt bro like okay there might be cats that can walk around wear a skirt and they solid to the people that they can take care of right but the exception isn't the rule most cats walking around in a skirt bro they're not super breaded up they're just cats trying to express themselves sexually because they've given up on the financial part i mean I feel like a lot of people who express like feminine traits like you're from Yeah i mean I feel like a a lot of people who express feminine traits you know and have been you know in the media for wearing skirts you know Harry Styles is the biggest example you think he's not breaded up you think Young Thug is not breaded up like people like that yeah but at what cost though like now you're starting to tap into the fact of like no like it's pretty obvious and it's out in the open now that a lot of these rappers a lot of these cats grabbing ankles these same dudes that wear skirts are the same ones that were popping up at the diddy parties they holding hands with Diddy calling him daddy i mean again this this kind of just goes back to the argument that a lot of people try to push feminization that gay people are groomers and they're on top of that bro like I get it i get it bro like I get like it's a cool piece of clothing like my pops he owned a fashion label he did it in the '9s where he exclusively designed women's clothing out of Egyptian silk i totally get it from a fashion perspective for a woman like bro it's amazing like bro I think a woman looks good in a maxi skirt but I'm saying I don't think a dude should be walking around rocking that and I guess my question to you to dig deeper is should this be you know mandated should you you know bully people who are wearing skirts it shouldn't be open common practice being taught to kids like "Hey bro go to school wearing a skirt." Like I'll tell you right now like the time me growing up in East Oakland you go to school wear you go to school wearing a skirt it's going to be rough for you i mean I'm not going to on that but we should break down that stigma of people having to be scared of what they choose to wear no because if like you said I should be scared coming you know to where you're saying wearing a skirt or or feminine attire or or accessories or anything like that so should people have to fear for self expression so I'll explain to you this right like I was a suiting specialist at Banana Republic for almost 2 years right and like dude like I see a whole bunch of cats walk in there different different arrays different budgets you know what I'm saying and I'm helping them get to where they got to get more than likely man like the cats that I saw wearing skirts man those those ain't the kind of guys that like you know the cat like me would want to rock with like the cats that I rock with they're solid through and through like I'm a business owner i'm also a professional fighter so it's like nah bro like just that kind of energy it's not conducive for me to be around because I need to cultivate a certain kind of mindset a certain kind of atmosphere around myself in order to what achieve what I believe is peaked to what I need to be okay so Riley based on kind of what you're hearing coming from Juma what do you think is a is a middle ground statement that you think you could both agree on or that you want him to agree on i would like for you to agree on that men should be able to express themselves in fact anybody should be able to express themselves however they want skirt nail polish whatever and that it should be we're focus on the nail polish men should be able to wear a skirt and it can have a positive stigma around it if they so decide if culturally they come from a culture in in Muslim tradition right there's this rap that you can I'm not even talking about some people would call that a skirt so like that kind of cultural thing no problem but we're talking about North American problems we're not talking about every other place so what's the middle ground that you think the middle ground is culturally if that's where your family is from rep where your family from rep your culture rep your set whatever it is right but you as a man if that's something that you want to do bro by all means bro just not that close to me though is good well I disagree i think that men should be able to express themselves however they want and that's it i I don't think there should be any especially clothes but what I'm what I'm hearing is even if you don't agree that it should be that you think it's socially acceptable you're I have heard you say that men should be allowed to wear skirts if that's how they want it you know if that's what they want to do if that if that's what bro wants to do by all means but I'm saying from like a cultural religious perspective it's not conducive to what a good nation trying to bring stronger individuals into the world should be doing see see there's like a there's a there's a background to this is not it's not cuz you just don't like the clothes right what do you think like I don't understand that you think it makes someone less of a man less masculine and that in turn makes them weaker for wearing a skirt in North American culture I do not believe that it's acceptable for a man to wear a skirt i'm not I'm not going to find a middle ground in between on that i'd like to propose that it's okay for a man to wear whatever he chooses if that's what you believe I respect you enough to agree with you on that part but me personally like you as an individual if you want to do that by all means bro but nah not for North American culture it means something different here so is that you saying that that doesn't work as a middle ground statement no we're not going to find a middle ground okay I think we can leave it at that we gave it a good try shake hands and let's start i still respect you though handle your business [Music] we did not find a middle ground in that last prompt but thank you to Juma and Riley for giving it a try we're going to move on to our next prompt which is does society need more trades or girl bosses who can define these terms okay so a girl boss is like girl who like slays the house she's independent bro she's like she's her own boss you know she don't need a man and the transwal is like a woman who's like I got to cook and clean for my husband girl boss doesn't necessarily mean going out and being a CEO or or doing whatever it's just an empowerment of doing what they want to do being able to choose that you know the best choice for that relationship is to stay at home and take care of a kid whether that's the man or the woman or whoever in the partnership or to go and work i don't care if she's traditional or trad and what I'm saying is she can go and be a boss at the job but when she comes home she's going to take that shirt or hat off and she's going to follow my lead and follow what I have to say cuz I'm I'm I'm the man she's got my name she's got my ring she's under my roof but with all respect of course as far as the traditional wives I mean my wife kind of fits that mold she does work from home uh but she I was in the military for over a decade and so I was a sole provider and she would stay at home and raise her kids and that's just really worked for us so I also have a 16-year-old daughter that I'm also raising to be a traditional wife can we get a show of hands of folks who think they're a good fit for this one two three a lot of times whether a woman should be a stay-at-home wife or whether she can like work and do other things in society is kind of a cloaked sexist argument and so I think that whether or not a man or a woman in a relationship you know who's the stay-at-home parent who's working should be a function of the individuals and should not be a function of us doing these you know gender role based prescriptions i'm caught between him and him but I want I the most important question for me is are you paying all the bills the girl bosses have been detrimental to society and how Trades have actually helped build the family and and and through homemaking raised up the kids instead of them going off to the public school system or being raised by strangers because the the girl bosses were too busy working to care about their kids traditional wives is outdated we find that women who have leadership roles do have higher success arguably than men because they get people to work together better i feel men it's about competition in like modern society most physicians are women most lawyers in America are women the most educated people out of men and women are women they attend school at higher rates they graduate at higher rates the the capability women have to raise children the innate ability that my mother has uh the connection she has with me is something that is very important and I feel like girl bosses lack that if you're going to say that the woman's duty is to serve the man say it just as much conviction that it's the man's job to serve the woman isn't the question we need more trades versus girl boss like that's the question right so like I I would advocate for that you know let's just raise your hand for Anthony steve who want vote for Steve one two three i'm going to vote for myself well all right well I'm going to assume everybody's voting for themselves votes for Jay one two and one two three four five thank you yeah all right there we go it's yours all right both sides have chosen a speaker to debate this prompt so let's bring forward Anthony and Greg greg Anthony the question was does society need more trades or girl bosses i'll let you take it from here i I definitely think that uh society uh needs more trades putting women in in the workplace is actually a failed feminist movement which minimized wages for men and then it gave the government free control over the children uh right through a public education system and I think that that's also why we have a lack of masculinity in society so Okay yeah so there's three claims there there was um the government controlling the children that's not what I'm saying uh and then um the wages being stolen from men i didn't say it was stolen oh sorry how would you How did you phrase it no you say it was like minimizing wages for men minimizing okay yeah sorry uh causing an impact on men um and what was the first one um it was moving women to the work moving women okay yeah so um there is no statistically significant difference between the cognitive abilities of men and women um you can obviously find an outlier study or two that says something else sure and so that's how we're debating though well no but it's to I'm building to my point okay yeah so um in that context I think we should have a society that empowers men and women equally to pursue whatever works best for them and in their relationship like for example we have friends who are married you know man and woman and they are both in healthcare and they both take turns working like you know dad will work one day mom will work the other day and I think it's awesome if we have career opportunities we have things like you know like uh you know affordable child care paid family leave um anything in society that supports people to make the decision that works best for their family I think is positive and I think if we had better options for people to pursue what works for them individually we would have as the prompt described it more girl bosses but I think your argument is that if only we were to put women in workplaces um which no one's debating that they shouldn't be um the question is not should we restrict women from doing it it should be should we have more tread wives right and so my argument is that there are studies that show that um having and and I can speak personally i've been married for close to 20 years um I was in the military for a little bit over a decade i worked i provided that's worked for me that's worked for my parents that's worked for my grandparents that's why we're traditional we carried on these traditions from uh family to family and so we see that our children are thriving i see that my children have a mother at home that loves them and is able to be with them for their school events or for um you know sporting things like that and it's worked for us so you know the question is do we need more girl bosses do we need more women away from their children um and I just don't think that that's that's what we need more of so why so if the woman is away from it's just one parents at home and one parents at work right that's kind of what we're describing it's just So what is the issue with a man being the stay-at-home parent um well I just don't think that's a role of a man um I mean and here and here's here's the reality my wife and I both work from home i'm out on the field a lot because I'm an independent journalist so I do travel a lot more for work right but we both work from home and that's actually great too you know because then I also get to partake in a lot of the things that you know we do so if like my kid has a sporting event 2 p.m I'm not stuck in the office i'm able to do that but going back in where I was deployed for months at a time and having my wife stay at home I think that it would have been detrimental that not only do my kids have a deployed parent but they also have a mother that's stuck at work 8 to 5 oh definitely i think that you're kind of I think we're not necessarily disagreeing there so what you're describing is in your situation it made the most sense to have your wife be a tried wife right as I sorry I'm a millennial and I feel silly saying tried wife it's not it's not it's not my it's not my verb yeah um would you agree that it makes sense for us to have those cases where it might make more sense for there to be a girl boss to allowed to happen do you get what I'm trying to say sure like I I think what your argument is is that um we probably live in a society where women also have to work and and so what I'm saying is you're yes I have a personal bias of why my wife uh should stay at home but also there's studies to show that you know women that tend to stay at home with children tend to have a happier family they tend to be able to have less divorce rates for example um as opposed to two uh people that are usually always at work and they rarely see each other they rarely spend time with their kids there's also some studies that show that kids do better in the long run when they have a parent that stays at home for example what's interesting is um regarding studies on stay-at-home parenting on the census an at-home dad is defined as somebody who has not been in the workforce and not made money over the past 52- week period over the past year and so when you look at studies of stay-at-home dads you miss out on things like as you mentioned people who do remote work or people who work part-time and so I am not as confident as you are in the sort of evidence base for this claim that you know stay-at-home dads are somehow detrimental compared to stay-at-home moms i believe it was the American Psychological Association put out a statement on this where they said that as long as it's a stable loving household that's the most you know that that's kind of the highest bar you have um but so I'm going to just going to pause you because we're out of time so I want to push you both towards offering a statement that you think both of you would agree on regarding trades and girl bosses would would you agree that in a circumstance where it makes the most sense for that family to have a girl boss we should facilitate that i don't agree with that just because it the what you're almost claiming is that the family can only be successful if the woman is a girl boss oh no oh that's not what I meant to claim at all i must have miss mis um so I'm just trying to say should we look at people as individuals and look at individual circumstances and then have people do what makes the most sense for their individual circumstances instead of making these broad kind of genderbased prescriptions where it's like you're a woman so you should do this you are a man or you or as you do in your own life it sounds like your situation is not exactly a traditional situation because you are considering your personal circumstances your personal strengths but also studies back that right so that's why I was saying less divorce rates and then if you want to get into like the intricacies like you know uh a family that goes to a church every single week has a 50% less uh chance of getting divorced right so it's just uh a little I guess difficult to come to the realization of like it's only if a girl boss was there right cuz I mean there is that question after should we have more girl bosses not should we allow women to work which is all part of lawful you know uh way of doing things um so I I I guess I'm just kind of having a hard time with that middle ground yeah what would yours be i I think the conversation I've had with a lot of people progressive men is that they think that traditional men are just strictly against women working period and that's just not my view i think that the rights are there my wife works right um but she works from home and it doesn't really interrupt the the household you know i think I have an idea so what about we should make it easier for a family to have a girl boss if that works good for the family does that make sense or let's flip it and let's make society easier so that the male can work and provide for his family on just a sole income without having to put two working parents and sending their children off you know what encompasses both of those sure so what I'm hearing is that we both have different ideas about what works best for a family so maybe a middle ground statement would be we should structure society in terms of our policies our safety nets things like that so whatever works best for a family is available to that family whether that's a triedwife or a girl boss in the household let me just let's empower families to do what's best for them it's a little soft i think we need to address you know like the role of women which is what this prompt is saying i I just I mean hearing all seven minutes of you it's just I wasn't convinced of like why we need girl bosses right at least statistics that's why we make individual decisions i'm not convinced of anything about your life but I think even though studies show like it's better for the household so my my opinion is that we should trust two adult people to make a decision about what is very nuanced though it's very it can mean anything right oh you should allow two parents to just do drugs all day because it's better for them okay you know so it's just too nuanced what I would say is we can live in a society where people where I guess girl bosses can thrive legally and trades can also thrive legally i just think a girl boss can already thrive it's harder for a wife of a woman to become a tried wife than it is for a woman in today's day and age with the current policies to become a girl boss well um what is a version of it you would be able to agree with that we need more tried wives you're not giving us anything no I'm sorry i'm trying i'm working pretty hard here i think we I think we'll just have to We didn't find a middle ground statement for this one we didn't come to an agreement but I like your facial hair thank you i like your group thank you all right nice to meet you man very nice to meet you yeah and thanks for your service yeah of course hey before we go any further we want to take a moment to say thanks so much to Straight Arrow News for powering the fact checks in this video 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let's get into it thank you Greg thank you Anthony we didn't find a middle ground in that question but we're going to move on to our next question which is are depressed men weak i would definitely say that depressed men are weak i was heavily depressed stomach a cancer survivor and with that came clinical depression anxiety disorder i gave up on life i didn't want to live and that's because I was weak coming out of that I'm stronger than ever before bless you for that brother you got through that but what I'm saying is ultimately the depression part of it is a weak mindset right yeah so that is weak like when your family member dies like you definitely have times but like you shouldn't like label yourself as I'm a depressed person it's like I'm going through like a sad state right now like it's tough times but you got to pull through it and that's what we all agree on is that we being strong means coming out of that and not like cuz like killing yourself is the weakest to do that type of sentiment saying that like men who have depression are weak leads to men killing themselves so I I like I just I want to push back against that there are so many studies that show that men who hold those types of views are more than two times as likely to kill themselves so I would like I like okay but I mean you know we'll give options both sides will agree yes being depressed is weak but they're going to say it's okay to be weak and I I think that we it's not okay to be weak because as men as a traditional man it's our job to be strong even when we feel weak I don't that that needs to be said anyway I think I don't agree with that at all I am a gay man and my experiences within the gay community and the depression that I've gone through is a completely completely different perspective from a straight perspective but my ability to fight through that and to stand and the things that I've overcome have made me really strong i've struggled with depression myself i have ADHD i'm neurode divergent and that does predispose you to depression anxiety and other things despite that I don't feel weak i was a former top cop i was the youngest cop in my state i teach women how to beat up dirt bag men so I I don't feel weak despite having those struggles with depression and anxiety it it causes men to have this complex that if they aren't enough for their family if they're not enough for themselves then who are they going to be enough for why are they even here if you let your depression win you're weak so you could be depressed but you still go through life like if you're just laying in bed all day then yeah I would say you're probably weak coming from like a biblical standpoint uh it says that the righteous man falls seven times but he gets back up you will fall and so that's okay but get back up that's what you That's what I would say who do we like being hungry i want you to two different ways to argue this i think that we have one who studied it is very intellectual about it and is very passionate about this case and we have another study where this person is traditionally gone through a lot of masculine things so showing their masculinity and very much so uh gives that example of depression does not make you weak every Chad raise your hand oliver 3 four five six seven eight okay sounds like we have a clear winner all right we're still working it out we're so good at this if only we could win elections like this all right both sides have selected their speakers so let's bring forward Alex and Oliver all right so the question is are depressed men weak i'm going to let you guys see if you can come to a middle ground statement you've got 8 minutes go for it i'll let you go okay sure yeah um so you know I'm coming from the perspective that I don't think that depressed men are weak um I think that depression is something that needs to be taken very seriously and I think that statements like depressed men are weak is are exactly the kind of rhetoric that perpetuates the problem that leads to people being stuck including myself experienced with depression being stuck in this type of rut that you can't get out of and the moment that I kind of like acknowledged myself what other people were telling me but I was really like oh my god am I am I a weak man am I you know somehow lacking in some sort of way the moment I you know put that aside and just was like no you know depression is a mental illness once I you know got past that and you know got the help that I needed it was really uh the moment that I started to emerge from that so I think that that type of statement is part of the problem and something that I want to push back okay but what you would say is staying in in a state of depression I would consider that weak right depression in and of itself isn't weak but when you label yourself as a depressed person or you let that win you over that that is weakness so I would disagree because I think it's important to define problems as what they are we don't solve cancer by not calling it cancer we acknowledge that a problem exists and how we respond to that is very important but I don't think saying we shouldn't call people depressed because then they'll know that they're depressed or that they'll rot in that sort of No no but I'm saying like labeling yourself as a depressed person like saying that is part of my identity if you an athlete is um injured in that second I think he's weaker than he normally is that doesn't mean he's weak overall but in that second Yeah is it weak to say that he's injured is it weak for him to claim I am currently injured i want to get better but I'm currently injured no but he's weaker for sure you people are definitely in a weaker head space but I think and and maybe maybe I'm I'm putting these like prescriptions onto this idea that aren't correct so when I hear the claim um men who are depressed are weak I think of oh they're less manly they need to get over it they need to power through and grit and it's it's it's I heard this from someone who was over there um from your side it's just it's it's it's a weak mindset it's a choice type of thing and I I I I reject that because it is a clinical diagnosis that people receive when they are depressed we all go through states of depression i I think no one here would argue that you're never going to be in a state of depression right things happen where you do feel depressed there that there's depression and then there's people who describe themselves as being depressed i think it's important to separate those two because you can feel sad of course everyone feels sad everyone has mood changes depression is clearly defined as persistent feeling bad regardless of the things that are going on in your life even when things are going well right but I don't think the prompt was saying that depression makes you less of a man cuz I'm I'm weaker right i'm I'm in a wheelchair if a squirrel could beat me in an arm wrestling match right i don't think anyone here would say I'm less of a man sure right i And I'm glad I'm glad that those connotations are not cool but my stance is you got to keep on moving like you just have to and you might have to take medication i'm not against it i'm pretty sure some people on my side are going to be against taking medication but um I'm glad they're not up here you you have to do what you have to do but I feel like society most of the times is okay they they say that it's okay to rot in it i really don't think that's largely the case i think it definitely is in some subsets of the internet that you'll find but I think most people I I think the way we treat mental illness is it's really hard for us to grapple with it because it's not visual there's this idea that when you break your arm everyone comes to sign your cast but when you say you're depressed they don't know what to do and run the other direction and I think it's really important to break that type of stigma that mental illness is a real thing i I'm not sure i don't want to speculate i'm sure there are some people who don't really think it's a real thing oh you just need to get over yourself you need to work harder back in my day we just said that we were you know sad and we pushed through well we we see it in TV so we see it all the time all over the place where it's like "Hey I can't get up out of bed today." Oh you know what mental health i don't disagree but I think we are as a society letting that be a norm and letting that be okay which I don't think it should be necessarily all the time because there's times where you have to get something done and you can't just say like "Hey I'm going to take a mental health day." Parents I'm not a parent but I'm pretty sure parents are here they're are depressed they have to care for their kids and I think you and I would both agree that like it it's it's irresponsible of you if you're a parent or something of that nature to neglect your responsibilities because of mental illness however I do think it's very much the case that mental illness can be debilitating can be crippling yeah well I guess fine okay fine yeah that Yeah sure then then you're defining weakness in such a way that it has no connotation behind it if you want to say someone who is depressed is in a is in a weaker mental state because they're not able to function as well then I guess we agree but that doesn't really get to any of the societal implications where there might be some disagreement between you and me as I think that I think we could agree that depression is weakness then okay so I I I would agree with your literal statement the problem is there are a lot of connotations when you say something's weak it's like oh you know it should be looked down upon that person is doing something that no because I'm weak so I don't want to be looked down upon i agree and I'm very glad but I think if someone were to like look at you oh yeah you're weak that would that would be that would be but it wouldn't just be a literal factual statement about the nature of the world as it exists it would be a normative judgment upon you as a person in many cases if someone calls disabled people weak would you just be like "Yeah yeah we are yeah yeah we are." Or would you be like "You're kind of an [ __ ] man." It depends a lot on context i I I agree with you but um Well then we would have to take everyone's opinion on it and stuff like Of course um just we're we're up on time so I want to push you guys towards offering a middle ground statement you know and and just to reiterate the question you know it was "Are depressed men weak?" I would I'll let you sure so here's I guess and this is why I would say I don't want to use the word weak the use of the word men in the phrase makes it very gendered if it was just are depressed people weak then maybe I'd give a little more credence to this idea that we're just talking about descriptively what is factually the case but I think when you insert men in there there's this idea that depressed men are weak because men shouldn't be weak men shouldn't have be burdened by their emotions or burdened by illness of the mind it's just you know something they have to power through so because of that here's the middle ground that I guess I would propose to you and you're welcome to respond to me on this um depression is does not inherently make someone weak men are not inherently weak because they're depressed however if you let that consume you entirely and you shackle other responsibilities or you or you claim that you have no responsibility for your own mental illness oh yeah you know I I I'm mentally ill therefore I can tweet anti-semitic things all over the internet i'm not talking about anyone that's real but you know so sorry about that but regardless so I I that's kind of the middle ground I would propose i don't know if that's too long but okay can we agree on the middle ground that if you're a man and you allow your depression to win you over then you're weak i allow you to win you over i think there's a lot of different things are going on there i also would kind of want to if possible degender that idea if anyone gendered episode we are you're right you're right you're right you're right that we are you are correct that we are however I think it is true because men exist and because men exist women also exist women don't just not exist because we all happen to be in a room with But we're not talking about women in this instance i don't think that's necessarily the case because we live in a society that is inherently gendered so I I agree with you but this episode of course okay so Alex what what would your statement be if you want to give us a draft a middle ground i would say if you if you succumb to your depression then you are weak if you allow your depression to take over your life and you don't seek help and you kind of just use it use it as an excuse okay for your life or for your poor choices and I would say that's and I have one more question for you a lot of men who succumb to their depression are ones who end up with a bullet in their head are they weak in your mind i I would say so yes you'd say they're weak men who kill themselves because of their depression are weak and I think that that that exact idea is what leads more men to kill themselves well okay so I don't you know there's a strong disagreement there and there's a lot to discuss there but let's let's try and make our way back to what do you think is something that he would agree on you know so he said letting depression take over your life is not a good solution so do you have like a counter do you think it makes some I'm just curious do you think it makes a man weak to seek medical remedies or to seek out treatment in that way i'm I'm in a wheelchair right now i have to see a doctor every 3 months so I'm glad to hear it yeah no okay if the pills are helping you and that then yeah go for it if you want need to get out of the woods seek Christ whatever it is that you need to do for that yeah and I I would I I don't think I really disagree with any part of that okay so we're It sounds like we're landing on if a man is depressed he should seek treatment yes yeah to men who are depressed should seek treatment should seek treatment awesome all right thank you to Alex and Oliver we did come to a middle ground statement for that last prompt moving on to our next prompt should men spend their time watching porn all right let's get you guys up in the center it's an unhealthy practice and as someone who is a healthy human being and can make observations with his eyes understands that this is not neurologically beneficial so maybe I don't even know why it's political i think everyone's going to agree on this so I think the worst part about it is breaking down the relationship between men and women making sex something that is uh cheap and carnal and not something that's spiritual and deep and something that exists on a higher level than just physical that's the other thing I think that they'll probably argue that it's just sex and it's just you know it's justating it's just something that you do it's it's it's something primal we just do it but it's not who on the progressive side is leaning you know thinks that porn is a negative it depends on the individual and then who thinks it's a positive okay both my hands up okay so there's actually a little bit of a split here i don't think it's either one yeah like it's it's one of those things where it's like it is a form of expression if the two people are consenting adults that are being paid in a healthy appropriate environment go ahead make all the porn you want in a grander sense it's a moral panic than men are constantly obsessed with pornography there's a small segment of the male population that has that problem like any other small segment of the population that's addicted to something this is a larger extent of the moral panic of men losing their quote unquote masculinity it's a non-subject some people are going to watch porn they will be corrected by their friends and family as they move through society and seen you shouldn't watch it but it shouldn't be illegal too okay no that's not the problem let's not even You're spending all your time not working not actually being with your kids you're just watching porn you're kind of a piece of garbage dad right porn is an anathema to actual tradition you can't be a traditional man if you are watching porn porn also just poisons the soul of a man and it's it's just absolutely degenerate it has no place in society there's no benefit to it it projects a fantasy onto women uh I think there's unrealistic expectations men are not going to get the right idea of how sex should be done consent lube where we're going to disagree and where we're going to clash is that they want to ban it and I am going to stand by us and our first amendment rights to allow pornography all right brandon John okay what would you say in the argument that they're going to present probably which is it's not hurting anyone it's only for my good and it's only to the people who are going to actually speak we all agree that we live in a spiritual world uh there's a spiritual reality it degrades women it degrades men it's degrading to everybody it does perpetuate violence so it is damaging people i would never buy that argument right all right raise your hand for Ben all right both sides have chosen their speakers for this question so let's bring forward Ben and John [Music] hi Ben what's up buddy how are you please go ahead cuz I have a feeling that you know where uh we all stand on this one so I don't think anyone should be watching pornography look I don't think you should mandate what people are watching that said if it is two individuals that are both consenting that are well- paid that feel completely comfortable participating in the filming of sex in exchange for money then please have at it as long as it falls under the definition of pornography as set by the Supreme Court of the United States by definition it is by the way something that you see and know that it is porn so if we're saying that yes porn should exist I don't think you should watch it because it is incredibly bad for you in the same way that you really shouldn't drink alcohol or you shouldn't smoke pot or you shouldn't smoke cigarettes or you shouldn't eat fried food all of those things are also very bad for you both on a cognitive level and also spiritually well so I think I think you're agreeing with me ultimately you're saying men shouldn't be spending their time watching porn absolutely but you don't think that it should be illegal right no we have the first amendment while I might while I might think that maybe it should be right that's not what I'm going to argue here i'll argue that porn is destructive to men and women it's destructive to anybody involved in the sphere what other things could be doing as a man hang on what What other things you could be doing as a man that porn takes away from you could be working you could be taking care of your kids i think every man's goal should be to create a productive relationship with his wife so that he can have a productive relationship with his children and a stable family unit porn completely gets in the way of all of that i completely agree porn does get in the way of interpersonal relationships that's it just wanted to just to call you up and not to be a prick but I'm going to be a prick you said porn porn is harmful to everyone involved how is porn well I mean I mean the people involved in the actual action of the either the doing the sex or the watching it so you're against sex work that's totally that should be illegal you're against the filming of it all that sort of stuff you're against Yeah i mean look at look at what it says and you're against the Supreme Court's interpretation of the First Amendment just to be clear that's correct well I'm against certain types of speech i mean the Supreme Court also said you can't say certain things but the Supreme Court has actually weighed in on this issue and the Supreme Court says porn is a legitimate expression of speech partake in it whether or not you want to the Supreme Court gets stuff wrong all the time doesn't it i completely agree there was a time when they said "Hey black people not very important." Right totally and so we can agree that they're not always right i think you and I can agree that porn's not the kind of thing that people should be spending their time in i completely agree millions and millions of men are spending their time in it we see what happens from it it creates an economy where women are being exploited right in certain cases yes i mean if you can make money from it okay cool but you know how many women are like well I could just [ __ ] on only fans so I might as well do it want to be doing it most of them i agree some of the people involved in Only Fans do not want to participate let's use the example of Andrew Tate and all of his webcam girls those webcam girls were not participating for their will they were captured in some way they were ins snared by the lover boy model so that type of porn very very bad but someone in their bedroom as a consenting adult selling images of themsel is totally fine and it's protected under the first amendment but again brother I don't understand what your point is you're going porn is stopping us hanging out with our wives that is a that is a fault of the man not turning the computer off and going and spending time with his wife because he's addicted i would agree it is the fault of the man as well but a man can engage in something wrong while it being his fault to engage in that but also the thing he does was wrong i want to if you're comfortable like do any of you want to pe speak from personal experience if it's informed your views on porn yeah i mean again I don't I think most men have had experience with porn right and it's not something that you're going to go shouting that you're happy about hang on you're going to go around okay we can probably agree on that right i would say that many men I think the average age now for for kids getting engaged in porn is like nine or 10 it's extremely young right they get hooked at that young age and then all of a sudden it blows up i've had experiences in relationships when I've watched porn i've had experiences in relationships where I haven't and I'm married now and I don't do that anymore and it's dramatically a better experience for myself and and my wife i I completely agree with you that it's better when you're not doing when you better when you're not doing it than when you are watching porno it's better for you because of all of those the false perceptive perception of reality that porn offers is very unhealthy to human beings you would agree and I would also I completely also agree by the way that is yeah there's a lot more listen we can broaden this out and get crazy you know what I mean let's let's workshop what what's a sentence as brief as possible that you want to offer as the middle ground okay i I would say porn is not the kind of thing that's conducive to a healthy uh relationship or a healthy life in general and that while it is legal across states we should do what we can to minimize um illegal activity on the sites themselves and also engagement uh with M or for minors i completely agree with everything Bennett has said not only am I in the middle ground give me a corn cob pipe and a buckle shoe i'm a [Applause] trad here is here I I completely agree with everything you're saying it is bad for you it is bad for relationships it's bad for women and it's bad for men it needs to be protected against kids kids should also be educated as to that porn is a fantasy that it isn't real that is not what a man looks like that's not like a woman looks like if you get into a van in Miami that is not going to be the result if you order a pizza nothing like that is going to happen i And to that I would say we need more education about sex we need more education about our bodies and we need more education about social media and the internet so when a nine or a 10-year-old is presented with a web page that says "Don't click on this." as they go "Oh this is something I'm not supposed to look at." And that goes to parenting so I think we in a macro sense absolutely agree but those are all details to the main meme of I think porn should be available i don't think anyone should watch it that's the So the middle ground is no men should not be spending their time watching porn i hope you're all sitting down i also agree no men should not spend their time watching porn awesome okay well that was so funny you did it boys thank you Ben thank you John we were able to come to a middle ground on the last prompt our next prompt should men be the leader in romantic relationships naturally we as men are actually the leaders we do a better job of just like providing security providing in general and when I seen the inverse of that it doesn't it doesn't really go well women don't naturally they're not naturally leaders and that's completely fine they're more submissive i mean we're more dominant we we do we just make better we make better choices i mean that's like also scientifically proven what you just said men produce less oxytocin and the love hormone right it's it allows people to be more empathetic and men sit more in that that more dominant role in terms of that leadership it's equal the way that we kind of have marriages in our society now is that it's a partnership and maybe sometimes what that looks like is that one of them does take a lead on certain things whereas the other one's taking the lead on others and you can have that balance and I'm sure that there's some decisions that one partner is more qualified to you know have expertise in and that's going to go both ways being able to share leadership and not leadership it doesn't have any impact on masculinity it does giving empowering women to take lead does not make you less masculine talking about romance so we're looking at the divorce and women cheating we got to look at why they're doing it because a lot of men don't have what we call the game they don't they don't know how to just be romantic it's not about just romance it's about listening it's about being sensual sexual romantic kinky dirty listening connecting uh going deep in the mind as a man you should have the ability to be able to cultivate your woman that's sexually mentally and spiritually and for me like if you're able to do all three of those things you good i I used to be a jigalo i used to [ __ ] with women that L yeah that's that's different that's different in order to be let's talk your job your job as a man is to be the leader in your relationship you need to provide maintain and take care of your woman i'm a child of divorce first off so my mom Yeah that's why we're depressed i grew up largely with my mom my mom took on both roles she took on you know the leadership role and I was with my dad on the weekends he provided what he could provide with the short time I had with him i think that women are just happier in male-dominated relationships like uh they just prefer to be just taken care of and nurture the children and everyone and like when we see that different power dynamic you just said is really problemat you go they want this women want this and you're no I'm saying no no no but statistically we see the divorce rates between you know uh male and female couples where the female is like you know earning more is the bread winner here's the thing man like I I I have had to go to a therapy because I am just a very unsympathetic person my wife's like you don't show a lot of affection you don't show a lot of you see you were talking about kind of like you got to be kinky and stuff like that i I I necessarily don't agree with that but I don't think it needed to go there but I think it is i think it is important to understand like that's what romance is and so who's going to be the better situated to talk about that we're all focusing on sex when it's Why are you seated because it's just too many people too many people yeah and it's like it goes a hard weird trench i honestly I kind I was joking i was like "Maybe I should have brought a blue shirt." Well can you guys can you speak to that a little bit where you're just feeling like misaligned i'm not in a relationship right now guys but the two I've been in both times I was whipped the relationships did work out for as long as they lasted because I did not take the lead in the role i let the two women I've been with take the lead i divorced yes but it was just because of the circumstances yes she had to move because of a job and I couldn't go with her i think it's important that we state that the order of God in Christianity is God over man Christ Christ and man man over woman and this is vaguely in Islam there is something similar in another religious it says let us make men talking about the ang deviate from this let's just focus on the argument i think it depends on what we mean by the term lead because I think some of us are having this idea of just like control or whatever like women are supposed to submit and just like and and I I would agree with that statement but I also think it depends on a man who leads uh like servant-hearted like uh I I would argue like a biblical man who he's self-sacrificing puts the needs of his wife ab above his own the fact of the matter is in romantic connections with women there be there's going to be times that I'm going to need to tell you no and I'm going to need to control situations that you feel otherwise about situation has not hurt yeah if you want to go to Walmart at 2 a.m in the morning cuz it's 24 hours and you think you're going to be safe you're not going so at the end of the day we as men have to say "Oh you know what i understand that but you're not going and this is the reason why." Guess what i'll go because I'm your protector that's leadership what I'm saying is these guys are going to play you and be like "Oh well why why can't they?" You know it doesn't have a study of showing women can can't lead just as well as men this is what they're going to say i think the idea of one gender being the only thing that can lead a relationship is just ridiculous like let's be realistic about it marriage is considered a partnership like you call it a union yet you're saying that one person has to lead is ridiculous you work together some person's stronger in other aspects the other person's stronger than the others you find a partner that you love a partner that makes you happy and you two choose to do what makes you happy together maybe you find a submissive woman and a dominant man great maybe you find a submissive man dominant woman maybe you find two people who are dominant together submissive together it doesn't matter it's about individual happiness it's about how effective you are in your own life to give yourself happiness less than 30 seconds i think he has he has a wife i have a wife who cares about no no i got No dude cuz I can bring them to a middle ground man i I got them on the middle ground you got the most votes he got the most votes nate raise your hands for Nate you got It's one two all right thank you kino one two three four five six all right i think we have our winner okay uh our two sides have chosen their speakers i sense a lot more tension on this side than typically but you guys have chosen Niels niels and Kino [Applause] should men be the leader of romantic relationships going to let you guys debate that for 8 minutes and let's see if we can find a middle ground i think men should be the leader in romantic relationships i mean I'm married i've uh I mean for eight months so I'm not quite uh being experienced but I think the the Thank you i appreciate that but I think the whole idea of men taking the lead in relationships men should be pursuing virtues and I think a lot of the things that men are biologically psychologically and society wired to do are things that are more like leadership oriented so like risk-taking being able to stand up for the common good doing all these different types of things and so I think that applies to a romantic relationship because there are going to be instances where a man has to step in and take control and say no and lead protect um provide and maintain and I think those are innate things that we have as masculine men the the the other side I think women tend to feel more protected and I think that's something that they want like they want to be led they want to have a man who loves them more than they love themselves you know the the biblical view is like you should love your wife as Christ loved the church and so you you give your life for that person so I think that kind of takes precedent okay well I see that when you're talking about these things you're talking about generally you're talking about for your personal life this is how you've experienced it this is what you view for women and what you view for men i would say that I don't think that really applies when you're talking about the reality that we live in which is that everybody is different you can look at any different person and every different person has different thoughts different ways of living different ways of reacting right m so even if you're a masculine man maybe you just are lazy right maybe you don't want to take a lead in your relationship maybe you like a partner who goes ahead and does their things for you and and you partner with them that's the idea of the unionship right is that you're a partnership and that you're supposed to work together so when we're talking about men assuming these roles I agree with you what you said about society wiring these men and wiring women to feel a certain way i don't think they're wired that way i think that they've been reprogrammed that way through movies through television through the way that the patriarchal society has existed throughout time and we're talking about uh women never being able to work never being able to vote like this is all stuff that is very very new to the world in general so when we're talking about women being able to do these masculine things it's not that they don't have the ability to or they don't have the desire to it's that they never had the opportunity before and we're trying to get there we're trying to slowly but surely progress so that way men and women have equal opportunities to do whatever they want not be handed a Barbie and not be handed a G.I joe but when you're a child be able to grab whatever toy you want and have fun and do the and live your life that exact same way as you get older sure yeah um so I brought up the points of being uh you know psychologically wired biologically wired and you went you completely disregarded those two and went straight to the sociological there are studies that show that men I mean we just naturally have more testosterone that's that that's just the way it is and psychologically where we are just more wired to be in a hierarchal situations and you know that that requires leadership because the person at the top is the one making the making the decisions i'll put it this way i think men have a strong soft side and I think women have a soft strong side and what I mean by that is men are supposed to take these um things of leadership but we're we're also supposed to have empathy we're also supposed to you know I I'm you know I would probably disagree with some of these guys about like men not being able to like share their emotions i know it is virtuous to show courage but a deficiency in courage would be something like you're you're a coward and whereas on the other side you have an excess of that which would be recklessness and I think a man leading in a virtuous state provides the most stable home to raise children to do all the to all to do all these different types of things so what do you mean by virtuous like courage temperance fortitude all all these different types of things we have this like Andrew Tate like hyper toxic masculinity that I would absolutely reject but then on the the other side we also have this rapid evolving uh femininity that that that's happening and I'm saying the virtuous path is is is often in the middle if we shift a little bit from kind of this higher level can you guys speak from personal experiences as to why you know have your personal relationships informed your stance on this and why you would make that argument yeah i mean I I I'm stupid i think a lot of a lot I'm stupid too my friend exactly that's not a great way to start i think it's the perfect way to start it John because I think you're stupid too John got it let's be real all of us are stupid at one thing or another maybe we make mistakes maybe we choose to choose we choose to do something that we're just bad at or maybe we choose to do something we think we're going to be good or we think it's the right decision and it's not so for example you know I'm not a mechanic if if my girlfriend comes to me to try and figure out how to how to fix a car you know I'll make an attempt with her but it doesn't mean that I know what best to do so I'm just going to go in there with a wrench the idea is that we try and figure out the best solution together right we're trying to make sure that we're doing the best things together it's not that simple as just oh I lead because I you know have a thing sure uh talking from personal experience the idea of of working together and being a partnership is an incredibly important thing and I think that that goes above just needing to lead regardless if you're the woman the man or you're in a gay relationship whatever it may be the idea is that you are in your partnership and you should be working together i think that maybe even your religion would say the same thing i mean I agree with most of what you said but I think at at the end of the day like there are going to be certain decisions that need to be made and I think the the men have the most capable instinct in and knowing that and granted they very well could be wrong so going back to the idea of speaking from um personal experience I mean my my wife um and I's marriage functions in a very like uh traditional sense like I'm the head of the house when important decisions come to make I consult my wife i really much value her her insight and I really care care about her and like what she wants if if it functions where the man lays down his life for his wife he he um leads his wife he puts her needs above his and the wife submits to the man's leadership i think that leads to a fl uh a flourishing relationship and I'm not saying submit blindly to this controlling man i'm just saying no like she should submit i mean but the man should also be loving her more than he he loves himself so I view it as like a partnership like you're saying but at the end of the day there is a clear distinct biological psychological and yeah you could argue uh so um soci how do you say that word societal sorry societal um impression on romantic relationships and I'm speaking about marriage in general but I would obviously even before we were married we kind of like had that figured out okay so we're out we're out of time for the debating i want you each to take a you know a swing at what's a middle ground statement you think you would both agree with after hearing each other okay so I believe that my middle ground statement would come from the idea of the betterment of your life for you your wife your husband your child the whoever is in your vicinity if you are working towards making sure that you have the best thing in that life regardless of if you're the leader or not so regardless of if the man is the leader or not as long as the relationship and the family is progressing forward healthily then that's all that matters i think I would put forth um something like this it is a good thing if a man and wife or whatever you know insert romantic relationship both pursue a virtuous life that will lead to both of them flourishing i don't do either of you disagree with each other's state i feel like we're saying the same thing we're just using different words if I'm not mistaken i just I think it would be preferable for your middle ground statement to you know talk about men or leadership ideally both sure okay how about this the most flourishing that a relationship could get comes from a man who leads his wife in love oh no i mean again I'm not saying that that doesn't exist obviously there's plenty of examples of existing but I think that happy relationship could exist without uh you happy relationship could exist without a man at all um but I feel like we're there i feel like we can do this okay so I believe that a man does not have to be the leader to get a happy relationship well I do think a man should lead but I think um what we mean by lead might be different okay let's do let me see if if I can give you something so if we do uh a man and a woman working in partnership is more important than who is leading them oh I wouldn't say more important because think about it this way i'm going to give you my example is that if a man is leading but they're a terrible leader i mean I'm sure you've met men that suck as leaders right if you man is leading yeah it can get real rough so if you have a man that's leading and but they're a terrible leader and the wife is submitting but it's a terrible leader so they go somewhere terrible you don't want that right you would prefer it even if they're not leading if the wife is keeping them in check if the husband's keeping her in check they're working together that's more important than a man leading right i think I would agree with that the only exception would be if the man is truly leading the relationship down a like a horrible place and the wife just has to like submit there and and and follow along as as they both spiral so how how can we we rephrase that to include that we got this let's just take a second are we yes cuz we got the idea wrong all we're trying to do is phrase it okay so let's give it one more try all right let's do this okay um you take a second think i'm going to take a second think i will what about the What about the the man should be the leader if that makes sense for the Nobody Every single prompt is making the other person concede on their their point and so I feel like we've spent like 15 minutes on each prompt trying to reach a middle ground when we said we don't need to reach a middle ground but necessarily to reach a middle ground on these things it would it would need for one of them to concede a point no no I I think I agree with you i I don't think we're going to get past this one like if if I have to give give the point that in some certain relationships if the man isn't doing his job like I can see that it would probably it might be okay for for a woman to step into that role at least for a time so I get what you mean i think you're thinking about it uh more broadly but we're talking about the man has failed it's good for the woman to step up so I think that we're good with that yeah sure yeah all right let's do it so if a man is failing in his leadership role then a woman should be able to step up yeah i agree with that a woman should be able to step up if a man is failing as a leader all right all right i appreciate you man appreciate you man it's been a pleasure thank you to Niels and to Kino for that uh very strained but miraculous middle ground you know the whole point of this is it is kind of an impossible task but you know I do think it is interesting to find where people will concede and that is kind of what society does is agree over things that seem impossible to agree on so let's move into our next one is misandry more allowed than misogyny choose your speaker i just think with the prom saying that it's like more permissible like how many times have we seen like I hate men men are trash online and then if you were to say anything remotely like that you would get flamed into eternity right i think it's really important to look at how we're defining permitted because permitted legally and in corners of the internet that no one wants to go to are so different just because some woman on the internet is screaming "Oh my god I hate men men should burn men are trash." And her comments are lighting her up does not mean that that's how society operates a majority of the time misogyny is so much more permitted within society because it is such a systemic issue there is not a systemic hatred of men in society it's just it does it doesn't exist misogyny gets women killed okay missandry makes women makes men have little hurt feelings sometimes we we know that misandry is is more permissible because have you ever heard of like toxic womanhood no but you hear of toxic masculinity you hear people arguing against uh just being masculine itself they treat it like it's a problem like our very identity and part of who we are is a problem that's that never happens with with women it just doesn't i think misogyny has a much much different historical and sociological uh context than misandry which is the hate for men especially because this has become such a thing that's been developed recently as a counter to feminism rather than actually speaking about things that men are actually dealing with another idea that came about in the 20th century where women you know women got educated and they it developed this adversarial relationship with men where it used to work in tandem right the order the man leading his household we all kind of agreed with that you know some of us who come from Christian and Muslim backgrounds agreed with that and some of us who didn't agreed with that when that was disrupted women started trying to compete with men they said well why is he above me now I feel bad they started getting fed all this stuff then it it it caused competition in the workplace correction white women started competing with white men I I didn't go there but you're right and when Serge Truth came in and started speaking about women's rights she was abruptly told that she needs to leave whoever's going to do it let's get to middle ground finding middle ground is going to be difficult though men do get demonized a lot i understand why you know I mean the fact that they're still on Andrew Tate and he's popular that's a problem but at the same time I think um misogyny is an even bigger problem votes for Abram okay remind everybody your name oliver oh yeah oliver has it appreciate it there's a there was a point in the past where uh misogyny was more rampant right but I think we've actually flipped now third wave feminism they have parades in the street this is why we got to this is why we got to the middle ground we got to get to the middle ground because of that though we have to get the middle ground so I think the middle ground could be Yeah I think the middle ground could be that both have been problems in this country raise your hands if you want Mike to speak on this issue i see one what's your Ryan raise your hands if you want Ryan i've seen the most i've seen four all right so the two groups have chosen Ryan and Oliver for this is misandry more allowed than misogyny yeah I would say absolutely it is i mean we hear this term toxic masculinity used have we ever heard the term toxic femininity no we don't but there are some women that have behaviors that I would say are toxic we were talking earlier about false rape accusations yeah that h that does happen and that would be a toxic trait coming from them and it's just uh a lot of the plight of men are often just discounted because they're men we are told inherently that who we are is toxic by that term toxic masculine in and of itself so I would disagree a little bit i think first it's really important when we're having a conversation about masculinity at all to define what we mean by masculinity so I think a lot of the times when people are attacking toxic masculinity as a man I don't view it as an attack on me because they in in my view are attacking traits such as like overaggression um the the these traits such as suppressing your emotions to the point at which you can't function or to the point at which like you are not able to communicate with your partner in a healthy manner um demonizing gay men or other men is not real men because they don't live the same lifestyle as you there's a lot of different things like that so when people talk about toxic masculinity I don't see that as a form of misandry i see them calling out types of behaviors that are harmful to everyone including men so any woman or any person who calls out toxic masculinity I view as an advocate and ally of men and not someone who hates them but why not just call out the negative behavior itself because there is a type of behavior that is exemplified and takes it to an unhealthy level you should not become like never talk about your emotions so much so that you become a raging mess and take out your aggression on people violently that's not good and that is a form of I don't even know if it would be a full form of masculinity is it's a perversion of masculinity toxic masculinity as I talked about earlier it leads men to literally kill themselves if they think they can't talk about their emotions in such a way that is healthy so I think that's actually really helpful to men in that regard i don't think so i think too that just aggression in general you you said that like it's a bad thing i actually think aggression can be a I said overaggression i think that in certain context competitiveness great it's fine but def defending your family would require a man to be overly aggressive to protect their family we want our soldiers we want our soldiers we want people that are fighting in UFC to be overly aggressive those are things that we actually identify as good and even women show preference to it but the question I going back to the question is is normalization of hatred for men more more prevalent than for women and I would say yes overwhelmingly yes so where do you see the hatred of men primarily i'm just curious uh well I see it in women's marches where and I see it in general conversation when women are like I don't need a man i don't need a man okay so I'm curious if a man were to say I don't really need a woman i'm happy living my life the way I am i enjoy my career i enjoy where I'm at i'm just not really in a position where I need a woman would he be hating women by making that type of statement making such a statement yeah would you say they hate women but that's not celebrated though that's not something that's No no but that's not what I said though i said is that an example of hating women is that an example of hating women you said an example of hating men is saying "I don't need a man." Yeah but but they're doing it in a way to put down men they're they're doing it because they they view the patriarchal structure of society as being an inherently bad thing why so wait a second because I think a society in which is structured so that men have certain advantages over women unfairly is unfair to them i don't think attacking patriarchy or the advantages that men get is inhering them there's a famous phrase that to the um is that to to the privilege equality feels like oppression okay so just because you are in a certain position and someone is saying "Hey I don't really think it's fair that you for example are taken more seriously in business meetings or have a better access to this certain education or within schools you're pushed towards more STEM fields." And me as a woman I'm pushed to more humanities or caretaking fields i don't think that you know I Yeah so I I don't I don't see that as a hatred of men so any other examples of Missandry happy to hear them from you and I'll say why I don't really think they're that prevalent so even even in a case like let's look at the the issue with uh Justin Baldoni and Blake Lively it was automatically assumed when that news broke that Baldoni was guilty everyone just assumed that in the very beginning and as more evidence came out it was it was looked at the opposite way it's because we have a culture that teaches women essentially to be afraid of men that were a problem cuz I thought that was a very very balanced case i mean I don't in the very beginning no because the general media consensus at least from my understanding was uh was in favor of Blake Lively but as they as more evidence came out they thought otherwise and here's my issue with this media perception is on social media we see the extremes amplified we see the most extreme voices the people who will say something at a clip i don't need men men are trash men should burn kill all men but that is not actually prevalent that that that is not something that exists outside of the realms of Twitter and the Tik Tok algorithm go up to your average woman on the street ask her "How do you feel about men?" I'm sure that she would give you a ton of things that she loves about men because there are so many women who date men marry men have men that they love in their lives and that's the reality of people who exist in our society not the fringe people on the internet so yeah but there are a lot of women that are foregoing marriage foregoing relationships not having kids all these things because they're taught to be afraid of wait wait are they taught to Wait what what teaches them to be afraid of men uh feminism no one second what i don't think feminism is it possible that their life experiences with men teach them to be afraid of men the fact that an overwhelming majority of women have experienced some form of sexual assault at the hands of a man or sexual harassment ask any woman in your life about a negative experience that she's had with a man you will be it' be hard to find one who hasn't do you think that's possibly what makes I want to make sure we we Oliver I appreciate what you're saying i just want to make sure we get more in from him before we start going okay yeah i mean anything you want to respond to there have been men that have been guilty of doing awful things toward women but this mindset that I believe is taught is that all the men are guilty of doing this that you can't you can't trust any man that you can't be alone with any man it's very common that women uh say that they can't they're afraid to walk down the streets somebody in the previous uh when I was having conversation said that uh they had that analogy of the women alone with a man or a bear and most women chose the grizzly bear that would rip them apart that's crazy so wait a second now granted I am not a woman so I don't understand the fear of walking down the street every night and feeling like I have a target on my back so instead of looking at this and being like "Oh my gosh this is crazy the women are insane i'm not even going to deal with them when I when I saw that I saw that I saw that trend i was like "Wow." Like that that is imagine living your life in a state where you feel like you are at risk of your physical safety from 50% of the population that must be awful and we should look into the reasons why what is it like 97% of women have experienced some form of sexual harassment you ask any woman if she's had an unwanted encounter of a sexual romantic nature with a man I guarantee the overwhelming majority will be able to tell you it comes from real life experience not this amorphous threat of men men are real and men can be very threatening because of many of the biological differences that I feel you would be very sympathetic to men are largely stronger men are largely larger men are largely you know have a lot of that over women so women you know sometimes because of the physical nature are more vulnerable it makes sense for them to be more wary of men that's just a rational response to the point where they would rather resp to the point where they would rather choose to be alone with a grizzly bear over a man in the woods how many men do do can do does the average woman really believe that she would be safer alone with a grizzly bear that that is trained to rip their heart than a man it doesn't make any sense to me because men show up too and to defend women fought for women's for women's rights i mean fighting against them i want to stop I want to stop you guys here plenty of disagreement but it's time to start throwing I want to hear more examples of misandry i still don't know what it is so I want to know um well I think we're out of time that's a hatred of men we can keep exploring your disagreements as we start proposing where there's a middle ground I think too so let's hear from just look at our education system all right so a lot of young boys are slapped with ADHD diagnosises we're taught that just the nature of us being who we are just being a little bit rambunctious or having high energy is like a bad thing so instead of treating that instead of dealing with that or instead of restructuring our education system to accommodate men they don't they slap pills on young boys get them get them hopped up on ADHD medication and don't actually let them get their aggression out or their energy out in healthy ways and you think it's cuz they hate men yeah I do i think in part I don't think it's cuz they hate men i think it's cuz the uh big pharma wants to sell you pills instead of the solution to the problem and I think that transcends gender they do it to both individuals i don't like this doesn't seem like a gender specific issue right it's time to start off that you think you can both is really interesting that he agrees with that what's a statement you think you can both agree on i have one hating anyone for genuinely hating them because of their sex or their gender is just wrong you shouldn't do it if someone genuinely hates men or genuinely hates women that's that's not good we should not promote people hating people based on any immutable characteristic and sex is included within there just just the question of is misandry I don't I don't think I can find middle ground on this because misogyny literally kills women and misandry I mean that that statement in itself our very presence no you misunderstood me you misunderstood me the hatred of women kills women would you disagree with that the hatred of I mean yeah hatred could lead to the definition of misogyny is the hatred of women so the misogyny kills women yeah that's what I just said the same thing the hatred of men teaching them who who they are as being toxic could lead to them ending their own lives okay so because some men because because some men might have a misunderstanding of what misandry is and they might kill themselves and that's the same thing as men killing women because or being unjustly unjustly uh locked up for rape accusations because automatically it's it's deferred that the woman is is innocent she's not guilty and the man is guilty what about Johnny Depp did that happen in that case what about in Chris Brown did that happen in that case chris Brown what about in Donald Trump did that happen in that case what happened to Brett Kavanaaugh brett Kavanagh was demonized yeah he was and where is he right now yeah because where is he right now because it fails tell me where he is where is he right now he's sitting He's sitting on the Supreme Court thank you okay what What do you want to propose as What's a statement you want to propose that you think you can both agree on i I don't think that Well that's our middle ground we can't find any middle ground on this i don't really think Yeah i think Miss Give it another sec i hating that wrong miss Sandre is normal it's very normalized to the fact to the point where we don't even realize you can't give me an example of it that's what I'm wondering a bunch of examples but the examples you gave me were women trying to live their lives of their own autonomy and according I don't need a man which is fine i I don't see what world you view that as hatred unless you think you're entitled to women yeah but that that that's the only way I interpret that as a hatred of man i'm being as charitable as I literally possibly can i gave you the ADHD example of kids of schools being structured toward them it's structured towards that but the issue is you can't just say that an issue affects men and therefore it's because we hate men i've literally heard women say "I hate men." Of course absolutely death to the patriarchy all these things wait no wait a second death to the patriarchy means death to the societal structures in which give men more societal power than women for no reason how that's not the hatred of men unless you think men ought to have that power because they are men that that that is the only way you interpret it that way so all I'm showing here is a lot of these ideas of what you think misandry is are just your misogynistic instincts and assumptions being exposed yeah so now you're you're you're assuming that I'm misogynistic you are I'm not assume that was not an assumption i gave you a very I gave you a very clear right now really really i hate men what is he demonstrating uh dismissive of men uh dismissive showing these this general sentiment of animosity toward men he He's showing it how you just did it so I said that you have a disdain towards women because you view breaking down societal structures that benefit men would you call me misogynistic because that's literally the definition misogynistic yeah probably i think we all are a little bit some more than others [Music] I don't think we're gonna get Now granted I want to point something out i don't think I'm free of misogyny either so this is not to say that you are a terrible individual or that I am a terrible individual i've done a lot of learning to unlearn a lot of these ideas that frankly I've been instilled with throughout my entire life so but I want to encourage you just for you know I'm sensing there's a lot of energy coming from your side and so I do want to give you an opportunity to you know expand on what you just said you you feel like he's coming from a misogynistic place but you say you might be coming from one absolutely if you were to lower your temperature a few degrees and expand on that in a way that he might understand we yeah we're two men debating women's issues so there's only so much of a perspective that I can provide here and this is not I and I look I realize that I have not taken the most charitable approach in this conversation and I apologize for that i do not think you're a bad person i do not think you are you you actively hate women i think misogyny can linger in so many ways that we don't even realize even when you hear this just happened last week with me someone was like "Oh yeah Dr berg moved to another institution i said "Oh where'd he go?" That's an example of it i assume that Dr berg was a man dr berg was in fact a very qualified epidemiologist that's the type of underlying misogyny that many of us have i mean isn't that just a misunderstanding it's not because No no wait a minute hold on hold on it's not because your assumption is doctor is associated with man that's your first assumption when women can be doctors too why doesn't the assumption go to women being doctors i think so why isn't it uh because I I guess we grow up where a lot of people just assume that men are doctors i don't know that because more men are doctors maybe maybe that person's dad was a doctor so he just had it in his mind that his dad's a doctor so yeah okay sure yeah it's okay if we can't get to a middle ground but just one last chance at least offer a statement that you think both sides can agree with yeah i believe I obviously believe that there's uh you know uh misogyny i believe that i believe there's misandry i believe these things happen but I think at a societal level we do see more of it negatively toward men not not women show me I guess give me examples of where you think this is happening more more predominantly against women than men against women the fact that women are denied the ability to receive certain types of education um in the sense of no within No fine within schooling they are often in intentionally pushed school no time we're gonna we're gonna have to end this one but let's let's at least shake hands and it was a good try thank you guys no even on camera okay all right moving into our next prompt is Elon Musk a good masculine role model sounds like there might be some divide come forward and find your speaker no no no he's not a good role model on this side i don't even know the guy he has a bunch of baby mamas which is not very traditional or like good for like a family household i believe he has a great mind and he's contributed a lot to society with SpaceX and all the other things but again I have no idea about who he is as a person so I don't know if he's he's a good man or not we're no different than them when we just say "Oh well he makes money right so does Andrew Tape." I don't think we would agree that Andrew Tape is a in the house father figure that's morally guiding his children right it's unlikely that anyone in this room knows more about the damage that Elon is doing to our government than I do it's also unlikely that someone in this room knows more about Elon's history than I do this is something I have a lot of mastery in and I would absolutely love to destroy on this topic my qualifications I'm a political analyst and I was an adviser to a presidential campaign i um am deeply involved in politics and governance all in favor of Ryan no pressure first unanimous vote is he possibly somebody that America maybe would need in order to go in a certain direction that the president is deciding to go in sure but in terms of like a human being perspective like first of all like he's a Dutch South African they hands down supported a part tide i've been trading Tesla stock for years dude it's freaking great but I stopped but now I stop trading it just based off the fact of where he stands politically there's nothing masculine about abandoning your kids there just there just isn't i I feel like we are all generally in the no column for varying reasons obviously he's a great business mind i would love to just completely just like fight it down and just say listen he's a great person that has accomplished many great things but he is off his rocker right now and he's never been fully on his rocker and he's not an ideal of what the average American man should be striving to be me one two the groups have chosen their speakers nepun you're coming on up and Ryan Let's see where this goes is Elon Musk a good masculine role model what do you guys think um I don't believe that anyone is evil and I believe everyone has virtues i think Elon's a really complicated problematic and potentially broken person and I think he gets exalted because he's his successes are obvious but his failures aren't as covered and I think but more than that I think when you're looking for a male role model who is successful there's so many people out there who don't have such an open track record for um you know casually having children everywhere and um and rejecting his child for something that they can't control and um it's hard for me to see how he would be in the top thousand of anybody's list okay so uh the consensus of our group which I'm here to represent is that hell no um he is yeah yeah we we don't think he is a proper role model for varying reasons obviously successful businessman brilliant mind the man can catch a goddamn rocket like so obviously he's great but at the same time you know he he's with Trump right now 2008 Tesla was popping up with Obama everywhere he's moving left and right he's not standing on a singular value that we can actually hold him to except I guess the value of money and and success and business development so based on that and the fact that he lacks a demonstration of family values we don't think he's a role model for like the every man okay so let's let's cut to the crap here um let's get a middle ground state on why you think he's not a good masculine role model well there's a lot uh side note I did not step in front of the Tesla that might hit me later um I did uh um I mean I think it could be as simple as he's not a good role model so I would say that Elon Musk albeit a great man that will be remembered in history for significant accomplishments in business and science does not represent a proper masculine role model as he has put himself in an imbalanced way to achieve those successes and he does not demonstrate the spirituality the family values or the social values to be a good role model um I mean I think the thing that sticks out to me that that I can't agree with is that he'll be remembered as a great man i think I think he'll be remembered and I think he'll be remembered as at least somewhat successful and impactful but I I think he'll be remembered as a as a mixed bag as a human i mean history is written by the the victors so we can't really decide how he's going to be written yeah that's my guess yeah he's a bad masculine role model because he's an imbalanced person focused entirely on business and uh his scientific advances for his businesses and rather than a family and a general sense of growth for society uh semi-agnowledging what he's done in the most recent election i wouldn't say that those are the reasons why okay what makes him problematic transcends any one of those things and incorporates them all um I think uh his use of Roman salutes and that's not great oh yeah but I think also um when if we talk about family values I'm I'm not sure he has values i mean there are some people who just you know they're not immoral or moral they're amoral they kind of exist in this weird third world third orb of you know existence and I don't he might be one of those people he may not have morals period I guess is what I'm saying well lack of morals is also a form of immorality I would say yeah but there's being immoral and then there's not having access to it by definition people who are clinically narcissistic that's those are amoral people they don't their brain can't do good or bad that way it's they're not inherently bad because they're not doing good or thinking good or saying good they don't have access to what we would consider good it's just not available to them at all well I'm not a doctor so I'm not going to try and suggest that he has one way or the other i just know that from the perspective of what we can see on the outside yeah obviously his hundred billion dollar industry and his hundred billion dollar life that we see only 1% of I mean one person brought up that his family was uh Dutch white in South Africa so they have a problematic history with apartheid there and a whole slew of other things the point is what we see in front of us the man presented in front of us is not someone that anyone sits and goes yeah that's a Chad i want I want my kid to grow up like that uh like maybe in business for sure maybe in science for sure but other than that it's it's not someone that you think about and you look as a well- balanced person that you want to be yeah I can certainly agree that he's not well balanced for sure yeah uh Elon Musk is not a good masculine role model because masculinity uh gives value to someone because let's just leave it at that elon Musk is not a good role model i love that it was really that easy elon Musk is not a good role model all right let's fight about something else that concludes part one of this middle ground XL we're gonna revisit those middle ground statements that we found in the debates in part two and we're going to give all of these men the opportunity to say whether or not they agree with those statements if you agree that Elon Musk is not a good role model come to the middle if you think he is stay seated there is nothing you can tell me that that's saying that Elon Musk is not a leader i think porn like there is a good release bro if I'm not nutting you know it could get crazy bro who knows that is a [ __ ] reason to make a mandate for other people you guys have got to stop discrediting our points just because your faith backs you up mr judgmental over here just chasing cuz I'm Listen y'all can laugh all you want you ain't got no game like I have laugh all you want you're never going to win me over on this idea that relationships should fundamentally be structured by one person leading another a man's job is to create order a woman's job is to create the universe so if you no longer fully identify as a progressive man or as a traditional man and you see yourself more as a moderate move to the center now